Invitation to a discussion

The Kingdom is facing changes and challenges bigger then ever. Where do we go from here? Who is/are going to be the next leader(s)? How to preserve HiH Dragon's inheritance while at the same time developing it to avoid the past problems?
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Invitation to a discussion

Post by Wäinämöinen »

Dear everyone,

while we still have to arrange proper farewell ceremonies to the original founder of the Kingdom, HiD Dragon, we must also start planning how to move on from this sad and unexpected position he left us with.

I invite everyone (including the critics -- yes, you too Fennomania) to participate in free and open exchange of thoughts and ideas on how we can build something genuinely good and positive on the ruins we now stand on.

Let's not despair. Let's not fight with each other. Let's combine the power of our minds and souls to find a way forward.
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Re: Invitation to a discussion

Post by Johnny »

I would love to see the VAL and GLI ideas used in the future. It is one of Ristos best inventions. We have the base already and now it is the question of building an exciting game around the base.

Collectibles are always a good base for a game. There are ETH based collectors games that brings in silly amounts of ETH for silly collectibles like silly looking cats or whatever. We have coins.

Risto was never much interested in pictures/graphics in the game. He never employed a graphic artist to make any unique pictures/art for Crypto Kingdom. There were never any pics of the collectibles.

The landing page was/is very bad. Just a borrowed picture of a castle and a login link. No info on what the site is about.

So do we continue with that or should we get some nice graphics?

Graphics are not a solution but might be a step forward?
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Re: Invitation to a discussion

Post by Wäinämöinen »

@Johnny, very good points there.

I also find the basic design of VA vs GLI to be really good.

The collectibles are a great idea too, although not new in any way.

Risto had indeed zero interest in the visual / UX side of things, which is one of the areas where we can (and must) now rethink everything, if we wish the platform to really kick off.

IMHO, we definitely do need some fancy graphics -- and a mobile app. At the same time, we can still have old school niceties such as CLI and (my personal favorite) an IRC gateway.
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Re: Invitation to a discussion

Post by taivas »

Hey, yeah, I think we should make bitcoin mining facility with solar panels. Happening with or without help. Wether the btc is avalable in this medium depends on your level of interest and participation.
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Re: Invitation to a discussion

Post by Johnny »

taivas wrote:
2020-10-04, 1:56
Hey, yeah, I think we should make bitcoin mining facility with solar panels. Happening with or without help. Wether the btc is avalable in this medium depends on your level of interest and participation.
I think this is the wrong thread for that idea. This thread is for the future of the game/platform Crypto Kingdom.

How did you other plans go? You were making some kind of Spaceship-rocket and some kind of drone flying system.

Maybe you can make a solar power bitcoin miner and send it out in space for ultimate solar power :D

Maybe you start your own "Taivas Big Plans" thread?
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Re: Invitation to a discussion

Post by Libra Dragon 11 »

I think that in this brainstorming period every idea is welcome.
HRH Grand Duchess Libra Dragon, TDT-EIC, WTF, ATs, THW, MR-5, GKK, OA-CO, SA-CADM, 63*OHK-SH, PC, F :wave:

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Re: Invitation to a discussion

Post by Syksy »

Hey all.

Few pointers:
Risto was never much interested in pictures/graphics in the game. He never employed a graphic artist to make any unique pictures/art for Crypto Kingdom. There were never any pics of the collectibles.
Partially untrue; the Crypto Kingdom had 2-dimensional world, where the original city was divided into boroughs. The lots for buildings were polygons, and could be visualized in CK. Further, he had a very "visual" requirement for people who built cities; for example, when I was promoted to a duke in CK, it was very specific how "high" my building would be, to which direction the windows would be towards etc.

PJ also implemented a 3d-block placeholder script in the original CK, which was something that was supposed to come into fruition eventually. It was basically a simple piece of javascript where you'd place blue cubes on top of each other, to depict a building. It never became a real thing.


But yeah, obviously Risto was more interested in the mechanics part, rather than aesthetics. But for example I personally drew a lot of graphics for CK, and I was in charge of ART and swords and such; people would request from me art pieces, and I'd "write" the piece as well as I could. Obviously I couldn't draw such grandeur pieces of art, but this was still an essential part of the gameplay.


- -how we can build something genuinely good and positive on the ruins we now stand on.
My personal ventures are quite obvious to me; I will continue working on Townforge, for which I shared information on Slack. Risto was aware that I was working on a crypto-based game, and I declined his offer to join the inner development team at Slack. When he inquiried why I wouldn't want to be in the inner circle, I said I'm working on a very similar game of our own which bases on crypto and I see a potential conflict of interest, and he was ok with it.

Sadly, I never got the chance to showcase Townforge to him; partly because we're somewhat perfectionists, and we still feel the game is in an early stage - too early for large adoption. It was pretty much just 2 of us working on it for a year at first. People now keep asking when they can buy its currency or when the mainnet launches, but we can't or want to guarantee any dates, as we wish to make a ready game. Since it's based on a blockchain and consensus decision making, once we launch the game we can't make notable changes any more - which would make it a disaster, if it was launched too early.



Of the people here-in, I'd imagine Petteri being most capable of actually implementing the "next version" of CK's / KotD's heritage. He did send earlier a link to a game studio website, where I believe he was main responsible person or at least co-founder. As I recall he had something of entrepreneur spirit, I'd imagine that would serve well in continuing on with Risto's plans.



To be honest though, I am quite confused as to what the heritage really is. Risto invited me to KotD in the first wave, where I agreed to be a comptroller - that is, a person who "oversees that the big picture is working, and if something is going wrong he intervenes". In addition, I invested 4-figures in € to his cause. I believe there were 3 net "investors" ever in KotD's first wave; Risto being the obvious one, me with my little investment, and Loaf with somewhat more significant money. I believe Loaf has since noted that he has no longer interest in putting in effort or capital into the venture, and I myself am knee-deep in the Townforge project.

During KotD I predicted for example that while bold claims were made of VAL/GLI's market cap, I estimated that the value of the project was exactly as much as Risto was ready to invest in it: viewtopic.php?p=4451#p4451
Nobody liked it (me cited as "naysayers"), and I still stand by that evaluation. We saw how much fiat/crypto were changing hands after Risto pulled out - basicly none. Even if I evaluated it as such, that's not what I "wanted". People don't seem to understand the distinction.

As far as implementation goes, I would've wanted to see a true crypto (blockchain) game, even if it was based on an Ethereum token: viewtopic.php?p=833#p833
Sadly, this never came to be. I don't think the current concept would really fit well into that framework. And to be honest, after working almost two years with one of the top devs in the cryptoworld, we're still only in an "alpha" stage with Townforge; it goes to show that making a true blockchain game (that's not based on just a token) is a massive undertaking and is really exhausting.

I was always pushing for a free, open source approach. However, KINGLI never became open source, to my disappointment. The API started to be there, but I never managed to build anything on it prior to the Court Martial and things going south. I'd prefer to see a community-driven, open-sourced initiative.

Notice also that with CK/KotD's legacy comes a great burden and a threat, something I warned of when Risto was eager to jump into BitCoinTalk: viewtopic.php?p=349#p349
Again, being the "naysayer" that I was, I pretty much predicted the outcome of going public without addressing the prior issues: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5227927
So if you do continue with a legacy involving Risto, prepare for quite a bit of adversity.



I think what you'd want to do now is:
- Really could use a clarification as to "what is being continued" and what is the ultimate aim; Risto's was to take down the corrupt world's elite, is that still the magnum opus?
- Take a count of who is now actively involved, what are their relative merits, assets, and how much time they have for the cause.
- Choose your platform (web browser based on a database such as SQL, or a full blockchain thing that's much heavier) and target audience.
- What really is KotD's heritage? Is it VALta that generates GLI (Global Ledges Initiative)? Do an ELI5 why it has value, what in it is new that people haven't seen before, and why is it interesting still when Risto is not involved.
- I think you can't ignore the fact that Risto was rich, and his involvement meant there was a "whale" present (this is the proper term even though it may seem negative - it just means somebody with a fat wallet backing up the project). I don't think any follow-up project now has that advantage.

I am interested in contributing, but I cannot prioritize this above my dayjob, or my "2nd dayjob with Townforge". Naturally Townforge could use help, but I'd also like to emphasize that it has no history related to CK or KotD and was instead started 'tabula rasa'. We're not into the mainnet yet either.


In any case, I wish you all best of luck. I'll try stay active, and well, you can always contact me through other means (IRC, Slack, Discord, etc).
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Re: Invitation to a discussion

Post by Allan54 »

Because i have huge troubles to manage this language and most of us are Finns there for i have sent to our so really urgent care taker
WAINAMOINEN my suggests and opinions probably he so kindly add them or do an short issue about my tiny brain ideas Live strong and we will continue
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Re: Invitation to a discussion

Post by Wäinämöinen »

Syksy wrote:
2020-10-05, 15:17
Hey all.
Hi, and apologies for the delay in responding!
Syksy wrote:
2020-10-05, 15:17
Few pointers:
Great ones. I'll do my best to provide equally good responses.
Syksy wrote:
2020-10-05, 15:17
Risto was never much interested in pictures/graphics in the game. He never employed a graphic artist to make any unique pictures/art for Crypto Kingdom. There were never any pics of the collectibles.
Partially untrue; the Crypto Kingdom had 2-dimensional world, where the original city was divided into boroughs. The lots for buildings were polygons, and could be visualized in CK. Further, he had a very "visual" requirement for people who built cities; for example, when I was promoted to a duke in CK, it was very specific how "high" my building would be, to which direction the windows would be towards etc.
To clarify: My perspective was limited to CK5 only. I was not involved in CK4 or any of the other, prior iterations. When it comes to pt. 5, I never saw any interest whatsoever from Risto towards the graphical appearance of the game. It was all about the higher goal and about the logic on how to get there. But I do get your point, of course.
Syksy wrote:
2020-10-05, 15:17
PJ also implemented a 3d-block placeholder script in the original CK, which was something that was supposed to come into fruition eventually. It was basically a simple piece of javascript where you'd place blue cubes on top of each other, to depict a building. It never became a real thing.
Ok, I see. From the tech point of view, if something will come out of what we have now, my choice of technologies would be JavaScript + WebGL.
Syksy wrote:
2020-10-05, 15:17
My personal ventures are quite obvious to me; I will continue working on Townforge, for which I shared information on Slack. Risto was aware that I was working on a crypto-based game, and I declined his offer to join the inner development team at Slack. When he inquiried why I wouldn't want to be in the inner circle, I said I'm working on a very similar game of our own which bases on crypto and I see a potential conflict of interest, and he was ok with it.
Sounds good to me.
Syksy wrote:
2020-10-05, 15:17
Sadly, I never got the chance to showcase Townforge to him; partly because we're somewhat perfectionists, and we still feel the game is in an early stage - too early for large adoption. It was pretty much just 2 of us working on it for a year at first. People now keep asking when they can buy its currency or when the mainnet launches, but we can't or want to guarantee any dates, as we wish to make a ready game. Since it's based on a blockchain and consensus decision making, once we launch the game we can't make notable changes any more - which would make it a disaster, if it was launched too early.
There definitely seems to be high potential there! I'm already interested, too. :thumbup:
Syksy wrote:
2020-10-05, 15:17
Of the people here-in, I'd imagine Petteri being most capable of actually implementing the "next version" of CK's / KotD's heritage. He did send earlier a link to a game studio website, where I believe he was main responsible person or at least co-founder. As I recall he had something of entrepreneur spirit, I'd imagine that would serve well in continuing on with Risto's plans.
Petteri is indeed exactly the kind of guy I'd really love to have aboard when it comes to developing something from what we have here. He doesn't seem to be too excited about it, though, and I'm not exactly surprised. There's a lot of weight in the history of this, and at this point there's still no clarity whatsoever regarding which way(s) the possible next iteration would go.
Syksy wrote:
2020-10-05, 15:17
To be honest though, I am quite confused as to what the heritage really is. Risto invited me to KotD in the first wave, where I agreed to be a comptroller - that is, a person who "oversees that the big picture is working, and if something is going wrong he intervenes". In addition, I invested 4-figures in € to his cause. I believe there were 3 net "investors" ever in KotD's first wave; Risto being the obvious one, me with my little investment, and Loaf with somewhat more significant money. I believe Loaf has since noted that he has no longer interest in putting in effort or capital into the venture, and I myself am knee-deep in the Townforge project.
Yeah, the backgrounds are really not the easiest ones. There are real reasons to why many people feel Risto was actually fooling them -- and maybe he was, although I personally feel that was never what he wanted. I came to this, in a way, from the exact opposite situation: I was (and had been for a long time) totally (totally) broke. We had many great discussions with Risto, and I fully wanted to participate in what I got was his plan: to help create something more functional in place of the poverty-generating FIAT money system. I had no money to invest, so I invested my time and expertise.
Syksy wrote:
2020-10-05, 15:17
During KotD I predicted for example that while bold claims were made of VAL/GLI's market cap, I estimated that the value of the project was exactly as much as Risto was ready to invest in it: viewtopic.php?p=4451#p4451
Nobody liked it (me cited as "naysayers"), and I still stand by that evaluation. We saw how much fiat/crypto were changing hands after Risto pulled out - basicly none. Even if I evaluated it as such, that's not what I "wanted". People don't seem to understand the distinction.
You were right on spot there, and you were not alone in making that estimate.
Syksy wrote:
2020-10-05, 15:17
As far as implementation goes, I would've wanted to see a true crypto (blockchain) game, even if it was based on an Ethereum token: viewtopic.php?p=833#p833
Sadly, this never came to be. I don't think the current concept would really fit well into that framework. And to be honest, after working almost two years with one of the top devs in the cryptoworld, we're still only in an "alpha" stage with Townforge; it goes to show that making a true blockchain game (that's not based on just a token) is a massive undertaking and is really exhausting.
As much as I do appreciate the block chain tech, there are reasons why I also dislike it. This is/was one of the things were Risto and I had virtually identical views. The reasons to the disliking have to do with technical details I'll be happy to discuss if someone/anyone is interested in it.
Syksy wrote:
2020-10-05, 15:17
I was always pushing for a free, open source approach. However, KINGLI never became open source, to my disappointment. The API started to be there, but I never managed to build anything on it prior to the Court Martial and things going south. I'd prefer to see a community-driven, open-sourced initiative.
It was a huge problem that all of the coding was dumped to only one person. I don't know exactly what was Risto's reasoning for this, but he was very strict about it: he only wanted *the* person to do all the coding.
Syksy wrote:
2020-10-05, 15:17
Notice also that with CK/KotD's legacy comes a great burden and a threat, something I warned of when Risto was eager to jump into BitCoinTalk: viewtopic.php?p=349#p349
Again, being the "naysayer" that I was, I pretty much predicted the outcome of going public without addressing the prior issues: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5227927
So if you do continue with a legacy involving Risto, prepare for quite a bit of adversity.
I understand the point while at the same time I don't think it's a burden -- rather, I see it as a possibility. A challenging one, of course, but even so it's much easier to get something going that has any kind of publicity (even bad) behind it than with something that is totally unknown to everyone.
Syksy wrote:
2020-10-05, 15:17
I think what you'd want to do now is:
- Really could use a clarification as to "what is being continued" and what is the ultimate aim; Risto's was to take down the corrupt world's elite, is that still the magnum opus?
I would redefine the above by saying the ultimate aim was to replace the FIAT monetary system with something that makes sense. There's a close connection to how you expressed it, though.
Syksy wrote:
2020-10-05, 15:17
- Take a count of who is now actively involved, what are their relative merits, assets, and how much time they have for the cause.
Indeed. This is a process actually taking place right now.
Syksy wrote:
2020-10-05, 15:17
- Choose your platform (web browser based on a database such as SQL, or a full blockchain thing that's much heavier) and target audience.
As I mentioned somewhere in the history, I was actually interested in the role of a CTO of this project very early on. But (maybe because of too much humility?) that role was granted to someone else. From now on, I'll definitely grab that position to myself. While there are many open questions, the one I think I can already answer with 100% certainty is, that the implementation will not be based on block chain.
Syksy wrote:
2020-10-05, 15:17
- What really is KotD's heritage? Is it VALta that generates GLI (Global Ledges Initiative)? Do an ELI5 why it has value, what in it is new that people haven't seen before, and why is it interesting still when Risto is not involved.
This is perhaps the question we have to find an answer to, eventually. Fortunately, there's no rush.
Syksy wrote:
2020-10-05, 15:17
- I think you can't ignore the fact that Risto was rich, and his involvement meant there was a "whale" present (this is the proper term even though it may seem negative - it just means somebody with a fat wallet backing up the project). I don't think any follow-up project now has that advantage.
Risto being rich was both a benefit -- and a huge problem. His wealth would, at the same time, enable certain things while simultaneously causing the sh*t vs. the flies issue.
Syksy wrote:
2020-10-05, 15:17
I am interested in contributing, but I cannot prioritize this above my dayjob, or my "2nd dayjob with Townforge". Naturally Townforge could use help, but I'd also like to emphasize that it has no history related to CK or KotD and was instead started 'tabula rasa'. We're not into the mainnet yet either.
I'd love to have you aboard! There's no hurry, there's no pressure. We'll see how things develop in time.
Syksy wrote:
2020-10-05, 15:17
In any case, I wish you all best of luck. I'll try stay active, and well, you can always contact me through other means (IRC, Slack, Discord, etc).
Amen!
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